Hi, I'm starting a new thread on the idea of Destiny Quests, perhaps the Mesogea equivalent of the vanilla game's Main Quest. The basic idea is that there could be a number of such quests, though the player would only be able to complete one.

Glissidia and Destiny Quests

A few ideas about the Glissidia and maybe a seed of how we might use them in destiny quests, while trying to keep them lore compatible. I'm thinking that each one should be associated with a tribe or faction, as outlined below. Any other tribes we should include? e.g. What are the special powers of the Sarach and how would they have used them? Would they have any remnant at game epoch? What of the Holorians, or are they too civilised and urbane to believe in such mumbo-jumbo? Do the Vandur have any presence at game epoch?


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Extract from the Sages' Guild 'A Treatise on the Glissidia of Mesogea: Myth or Reality?'

The origin of the Glissidia is unclear. They are suspected to be not of terrestrial origin; whether they arrived by meteor storm, were the result of astral travellers inauspiciously plummeting to the ground, or were deliberately left as a curse or benefit for meankind, it is a matter of conjecture.

Legends of the Glissidia exist in many cultures, though more than a few of these are contradictory. However, some of the most consistent versions lead us us to believe the following:

Each Glissidium is unique, but there are known to be (at least) six distinct types or 'flavours', though these are subdivided into pairs or 'duets'. These are dubbed (by duet): Undestined & Destined, Charred & Smoked, Truthful & Beautiful. Various cultures have found these powerful artefacts to be capable of many things, but most agree that duets have more power than any other pair, and a matched sextet is immensely more powerful than any other six. It is thought that certain combinations of flavours may be powerful in different ways, though the lore details are unclear. It is not known how many there are in total, and it is entirely possible that many have never been discovered by man.

Different legends include stories of matched sextets causing great destruction amongst friend and foe alike. Some tell of them enabling spectacular victories over enemies, other of bringing about the downfall of their owners through injudicious use. There exist reports of disparate opponents allying to destroy a tribe and deliberately scatter their Glissidia so as to avoid future catastrophes. Some claim that the very Age of Ice and the Epoch of Floods were themselves a result of misusing the power of these artefacts.

The Sheahlin were reputed to be able to use the Glissidia to extract and channel geomantic energy from the subterranean depths and thence to power many of their sacred sites. Other reports tell of their strategic success due to the ability to instantaneously communicate and even travel over large distances.

Tales tell of the Vandur using the Glissidia to focus their mental powers, their sorcerers being able to radically alter the substance of flora, fauna and even the living rocks themselves. They could shatter wood and stone as well as burn or freeze living flesh. Rough stone could be fused into smooth glass. Enemy walls would be fractured, palisades would shatter and incoming arrows would weaken before impact. They could also use this power to create extremely durable, sharp and precise weaponry. Some others of their mages were thought to be able to instill feelings of fear, self-loathing and despair amongst unprotected enemies that came too close.

The shamans of the Brugaurans were thought to use the Glissidia to enhance their ability to inflict curses and set charms. Curses could vary from bad luck, failure in certain endeavours, becoming struck with particular ailmants, up to dreadful afflictions and sudden death. A cursed man would be told he would die at sunset, and indeed he would. Objects could be charmed or hexed to produce good or bad effects on those who interact with them. A charmed hen's foot could bring its owner prosperity or success in a venture; a hexed shrub could inflict a pox on anyone who brushed against it. Armies who invaded their territory would rarely fear Brugaurian warriors; nevertheless they would suffer dreadfully from a constant attrition of harmful accidents, equipment failures, debilitating illnesses and sores, and even of soldiers dropping dead for no apparant reason.

The Tammarians were once thought to use the Glissidia to alter the weather patterns when they were plain dwellers. Such weather could bring bountiful harvests for themselves or harmful inundations and giant hailstones on their foes. Since becoming sylvan dwellers, they are thought to have perfected the skill of altering tree growth so as to create living palisades for their towns, great halls, chambers and habitations within fused clumps of trees, and even cohorts of arboreal creatures that could transplant themselves to enemy fortifications and use their roots to undermine and pulverise defensive walls. They are also thought to create traps for enemies where a ring of trees will fuse to enclose them, whereupon lashing hailstorms, gusting winds and whipping branches would pound them into submission.

It is reported that the Karithians could use the Glissidia to create and direct sandstorms that would envelope their enemies and shred their flesh, leaving nought but clean bones. Other tales tell of the sands flowing like the seas, of crashing waves, sucking whirlpools and even monsters of sand that consume anyone caught within. Similarly their mages could summon a defensive berm in the sand.

There are further legends of people unknown to modern Mesogea who could use Glissidia to summon vile creatures from the underworld, to spew them forth from fissures and volcanoes, and even to create toxic fumaroles and sulpherous geysers in the lands of their enemies. Such stories may just be fanciful inventions, or may refer to peoples beyond the limits of the known world.
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FYI I'm loosely basing the flavour idea on quarks - subatomic particles.



I suggest the Glissidia quests could operate on two levels.

Firstly, sub-destiny level, finding individual or paired Glissidia to enable or make use of certain powers of a tribe, location or region. It should be possible for the PC to complete any or all sub-destiny quests. This could be the powering of Sheahlin shrines, the enablement of ancient Brugauran mining and refinement equipment, the creation of a ring of Tammarian arboreal forts, etc.

Secondly, destiny level. This will be a quest whose outcome affects the future of Mesogea. Carrying this out would involve the player aligning himself with the destiny of one particular people. He would have to find and retrieve a sextet (or more) of Glissidia and use this to bring about some major event for the benefit (or detriment) of the people. This could be to reclaim an ancestral homeland, eliminate a powerful enemy, enable lost powers, or something else of great significance. Only one destiny quest can be completed, though there may be alternate paths to that end; the outcome should preclude all others. This could done be by disabling part of another tribe's destiny or just by using up key Glissidia that would be so required. Success of a destiny quest should not be guaranteed; it should be possible for the player to screw it up irretrievably, perhaps with catastrophic results. Cyrodiil may guarantee the rank of champion for any persistant contender, but in Mesogea there could come about an infamous harbinger of doom whose very name will be cursed for generations!

There should probably be a special place in all this for the Sages' Guild. I think they should be a truly non-tribal group of scholars who quest for genuine knowledge and understanding for mankind's benefit rather than finding the means to selfish power and influence. However they exist in the present epoch and are subject to the various pressures and forces around them, so they may see the next step of mankind's future in the success or manipulation of one particular people's destiny. They should likely be involved with some or all of the destiny quests.

So, what tribes deserve a destiny? What about sub-tribal or cross-tribal factions? What do Glissidia look like in their base state - overwhelmingly awesome or quite dull until enabled? How should they be located / handled / transported / activated?

Any of this worth taking further?

I am happy to go with most of this but would guard against the Glissidia becoming the nuclear weapons of their time. Any old tribe would be able to rip apart another or mutually assured destruction would stagnate the world. The Holorians have a disdain for magic, their military being organised and professional, is the Spartan or Roman Army of the time, almost all powerful but not numerous enough to consider world domination. Limited by population and having the capability to throw their weight about but limited in that it is costly to mount campaigns, they are often privately funded and the land conquered is costly to adminster too. Basically similar to Rome. Going too far with the above would be like giving the Ark of the Covenant physical powers beyond the abilities of the Persians to overcome. A small number of people in possesson of Glissidia would wieled enormous power and destroy Empires. I would keep the Glissidia as being mostly a totem, that with the correct handling and knowledge can add certain capabilities but that still cold steel and military training is the final arbiter of victory. I always considered the Glissidia as being limited to certain artefacts and places. Such as a glissidia in the depths of some fortress that is only useful when it remains on the crossed lay lines on which the fortress was built, those being near enough to it and attuned to it, being able to read the thoughts of others at a distance or control the weather for a certain distance, maybe able to unleash plague or pestilence, to draw swarms etc, but the power once used is spent for a period maybe decades.

Some Glissidia are set in artefacts such as a decorated ark that a civilisation reverre and which their shaman can use to rally forces, to obtain suicidal allegiance of their troops. However the power limited by the number of soldiers in the army. You can have absolute loyalty but throw your army of three to ten thousand against one stronger and bigger and all you will command will be dead men.

The sages could be the Vandur (seeking domination and conquest) and the Durya who stand in opposition to them. I dont want to use the word guild too much as I think it has become cliche and is too similar to Oblivion, medieval even. We could create two entirely opposing factions who can be at work throughout tribes and places, certain Durya and Vandur who are actively seeking the Glissidia and weaving their schemes throughout various societies. These factions could have a name that any player would only discover as they come across the plot schemes and become woven up in them. A player could even find themselves on a quest that has been manipulated by the Vandur, then find themselves with a price on their head by the Durya without even knowing of it.

Hi, I ceratainly don't mean the Glissidia to be generic superweapons or anything like that - anything they can be used for is defined only within quests. I'm suggesting they're a useful mechanism to bind a series of major quests, all of which shouldn't be at odds with any lore or the overall spirit of the world. I see their use more as balance shifters rather than earth shakers. By activation I mean how would they be 'switched on' in their quest roles.

The idea of flavours was to give the quests extra challenge; instead of collecting any old Glissidia for the task, particular types have to be sought out. The matching could be part of the puzzles as certain flavour configurations may be required for at different objectives in the quest.

The only use for them I've put any real thought into is that of the Sheahlin, with the geomantic sources idea. The balance shift would be the reestablishment of the Sheahlin as an underground community, with perhaps a minimal return to the surface around some of their shrines. Nothing that would hugely affect the overall world, though would still seem to be a major achievement to the player.

I suppose for the Brugaurans, the Glissidia could be used as part of a quest to reunite the clans, reestablish their old mining technologies and allow them to become a more powerful force. In their area, the balance shift could be to dominate the Metabiles - likely make their former oppressors a vassal state. Doubtless the Holorians would be as happy to do a deal with the new masters as long as they keep their road access and mining interests!

If the Glissidia idea could be made to work across other tribes, I think that would give the destiny idea some glue. I mentioned a few ideas earlier, I don't think I'm yet lore-savvy enough to do this in enough detail, so thinking caps please, ladies and gentlemen!

I like the idea of the Durya and Vandur as ancient secret factions, manipulating others for their own agendas - Da Vinci Code meets SMERSH! Do you suggest that the player should be able to join one of the factions, or that their machinations weave through other quests?

At present I'm seeing the Holorians as the cornerstone of the world, so they wouldn't necessarily have their own destiny quests. They may well benefit or lose out slightly as a result of others' destinies, but it shouldn't shake their world too much. Unless, of course, you have big ambitions for the Durya and Vandur...

Ah! I see what you mean now. I like that very much, balance shifters rather than earth shakers! Indeed.

The Holorians are fairly much the cornerstone, they are the Romans of their time, highly religious but mistrustful of all magic, maybe even banned? We could even have citizens turning against those who use magic, and magic within the walls of Illusidum or the other cities! Banishment!

I also thought about using banishment rather than imprisonment. A holding cell at the docks for those caught committing crimes serious enough for banishment, then shipped off to some island.

Anyway back to the Glissidia, I think you have got the lore down to a T actually. The lore is fairly well written in parts which is why I want to make as much literature available as possible, but definately I dont want to monopolise it. Ok, I made the world up but I dont want to be the only God, so I see us all as equals, I prefer to work from the basis I have invented but from there, well many heads are better than one and if the majority want to go in one direction and I disagree, then I will go with the majority, gladly.

Please feel free to invent as you will, as long as we keep it probable as an earth mythology and keep an ancient flavour to it, the rest is yours to do as you wish.

As with what you wrote, there are parts I never foresaw, parts I would personally not have used but having it spelled out I have to say, bloody well done and thank god Im not doing this alone because I would be missing so much out.

Youve got the Holorians off perfectly, the Brugaurans or Metabile, they would manipulate either and deal with both if there was money in it. Scheming buggers the Holorians.

Some literature changed to rtf

Its all a bit of a hodge podge so some bits may contradict others, but generally its quite a fair description and adds lots of history.

There are a lot of ideas here and some of them I like very much, but I think that the true power of the Glissidia lies in their ability to inspire far-fetched notions of absolute power in desperate would-be conquerers.

Of course, the Durya and Vandur know all about them, having discovered them and refined their use over the millenia, but everything else, even the knowledge of the highly esteemed Sages' Guild, is built largely on speculation sprinkled with savory does of misinformation from both sides. Only the Durya and Vandur know the true power of the Glissidia, and know how complex and fragile the relationship between the stones is and how best to cultivate and evoke it. After the last cataclysm, of course, the stones were scattered, and their essence is so delicate and effervescent that magical means are almost completely ineffective in locating them. Which is why they employ other people to assist them in the task, seducing them with tales of untold powers to be had in their attainment. The Vandur don't care which of their dupes find the stones, and carelessly seed the winds of rumor with tales of their power, following promising leads and recovering found stones with perfunctory thefts and assassinations. The Durya are much more discriminating in their choices, and tend to direct potential assistants through gentle hints and nudges, reinforcing always the responsibility of the finder to use the powers of the stone only for good. Those who are successful in the task of locating the stone, and seem to be of genuine good character and of strong will, may be initiated somewhat into the mysteries of the Durya sages and allowed to remain in possession of the stone, charged with guarding it and maintaining it in utmost secrecy. Those who find a stone but are not deemed worthy of its possession will find that it mysteriously disappears in spite of their most ingenious efforts to safeguard it.

This sort of scenario allows for a couple of different player objectives:
1. Be a 'good guy' and help the Durya find a stone and a place to hide it in safe keeping (ie. 1. find the stone, 2. find a place to store it, 3. protect it from attacks)
2. Be a 'good guy' and help the Durya recover stones from unworthy owners (an opportunity to play a role as a 'good' thief stealing from corrupt NPCs)
3. Be a 'bad guy' and help the Vandur find a stone and then realize that they are willing to kill you to get it (in this scenario, the player will have to find some way to keep the stone from the Vandur so that they can use it to pursue their own objectives or at the very least keep themselves from getting killed when the Vandur come looking for it; optionally, the Vandur may allow the player to be a stone's guardian if they complete some sort of test or series of quests to prove their worthiness)
4. Be a 'bad guy' and help the Vandur recover a stone from one of their dupes, or from a 'good guy' who is serving the Durya
5. Be a 'neutral', Indiana Jones/Lara Croft-type character and just go hunting for the stones grave-robber-styles and sell them to the highest bidder. This is particularly interesting, since both the Vandur and the Durya would have agents attempting to retrieve the stones from the player. Make for some interesting tavern brawls, that's for sure.

I think all of these options have some long-range quest potential. The ultimate use and power of the stones can be held in secret by the elders of the Durya and Vandur for an appropriately epic quest arc further down the road (say when the player has reached level 30 or so....)

Nice, I like that. Some great quest ideas. Just to update you on progress, I have complted Ventara and added some surrounding stuff. I have now done another run of distant land so that Ventara, the bridge etc will all show up. I can then produce a map.

I have completed five out of the twelve interiors I need to do. Give me a few more days and I can compact them into the master file, then release! We can then start implementing these ideas, creating the NPC;s etc.

I like that idea of the good guy/bad guy/neutral roles. The neutral may well suit the Sages' Guild quests, at least at the early stages. It could well be that a senior sage (or more) is also a Durya agent, though that may not necessarily mean a major conflict of interest. The sages are more like scientists and scholars who are interested in the 'pure' knowledge of things. The Durya are the ones who want a 'good' outcome, so may be concerned only with any Sages' Guild openness of information in case it's misused by others, but otherwise have similar aims about Glissidia. It may allow for some good characterisation if any Durya/Sage dual member has all sorts of angst about any such conflict of interest or loyalty. Additionally the Sages' Guild could have been infiltrated by Vandur agents, so there could be quest potential for tracking down and unmasking such agents.

This could leave the player with dilemmas as to what to do with any found Glissidia. Hand them over the the Sages' Guild directly, or to Vandur/Durya agents, or even to directly make use of them. Some of the destiny quest options may be:

1) Loyal alignment with a tribe, the Glissidia leading to major tribe destiny. This should benefit the tribe.
2) Selfish alignment with a tribe, the Glissidia leading to major personal gain. This could be to the benefit or detriment of the tribe.
3) Sages' Guild guided path, involving a tribe. This could be beneficial or detrimental to the tribe. The outcome should benefit the world, as judged by the Sages' Guild.
4) Durya guided path, involving a tribe. Beneficial or Detrimental. World benefit as judged by Durya.
5) Vandur guided path, involving a tribe. Beneficial or detrimental, but that's a by-product. The Vandur benefit is the main objective.
6) Non-tribal paths, maybe just acquiring Glissidia for others to use.
7) Minor destiny paths, using the Glissidia for particular functional purposes. These may be with or against Sages/Durya/Vandur alignments, or may be unconnected.

Some of the tribe-aligned quests could have a much larger impact on a different tribe, good or bad. The original tribe would be more of a catalyst.

I think the banishment idea would work well for the Holorians - maybe even transportation to the colonies! This may be a good reason to have populations of civilians in unsavoury places. It may also be a reason to have pockets of ethnic Holorians living independently outside areas of imperial control. Refugees and adventurers - those who flee or just don't feel at home under imperial rule. That's sort of what I was thinking about the independent Holorian settlement in Metabile territory.

While the Empire may be very anti-magic, do you mean that it would regard it as unsavoury/immoral/dangerous, or just that it regards it as weird mumbo jumbo? Just not the Holorian way. Even such a society may have an element of rebellious youth & new age types who would be into it, especially if it is anti-establishment. Of course the large majority would disapprove. I like the idea of a Holorian equivalent of the Daily Mail (UK newspaper) that would reflect and lead public moral outrages about various issues! "Coven of witches found in city centre. String up these monsters, it's the only language they understand! How will this affect city property prices?" sort of thing.

BTW, got the .rtfs OK, ta!

Re Magic, very much mistrusted, mumbo jumbo, barbarian and uncivilised, maybe even offensive to the Gods. The constitution is built up of very ancient laws imported from the Eastern Empire, an austere and conservative place built upon centuries of tradition with the Emperor central to rule and although allied to the Gods and maybe even descended from them, the Emperor is the people and behind the Emperors power are the Ilphora, a senate of old men, voted by the people to annual office. The Emperor can be called to appear before the Ilphora and any decree he makes can be vetoed. Actually the Ilphora are more likely to be bribed off.

In the western Empire the government goes a bit further with cities having a bit more autonomy and consullors voted by city rather than faction. However at the base of all of this is the law and the freedom of the citizenry. It is a crime not to vote and any man who is not excused from voting for his city consullor (or consullors) can have his property siezed. The very essence then of both east and west is constitutional government, that no man can be above the law, even the Emperor and that the endless cycle of conflict within the government and free speech is sacrosanct. Magic is seen as underhand, sneaky and effeminate.

"Better swords in the Middenstal than poison in the cup or curses muttered over braziers" Mardonius Fevra (D 72-142) during the reign of Bacchus Essedarus when recalling the depradations of the Emperor Tarma.

There would always be those who considered Tarma to be a hero, worshippers of demons and sacrificers of children (indeed there are places in the mountains over Illusidum where these sacrifices take place, generally near to the tomb of Tarma and his other haunts, places where he raised temples to the new gods (Vanduric, though he did not know he was being poisoned and manipulated by the Vandur).

Anyone caught using magic in one of the cities would be likely arrested and there would be purges, depending upon the current Emperor and the Consullori. Newspapers would be ok, but I would prefer most news to come from speakers in the central square. We could have a couple of NPC's doing a weekly or even daily news blast to a gathered crowd.

Ideologically, of course, the empire would be against magic because it is unbalancing. All the pejoratives (mumbo jumbo, barbarian, offensive to the Gods, underhanded, effeminate) would be directed towards the political aim of maintaining the public's distrust of it. Having neighbors that will inform officials about your occult practices if you are caught doing them is usually a good deterrent.

But I don't think that the Emperor could afford to ignore the actual or perceived power contained in occult ritual. At the very least, if I were Emperor, I would want to be very well-informed of all magical goings-on in my empire, much the way current governments need to be informed of terrorist and criminal group activity, even if they can't always directly intervene. There would have to be some sort of 'secret police' to keep on top of these things. And it might not be a bad idea, from a realpolitik standpoint, of having a few well-trained and loyal magic users to handle situations that can't be resolved through more direct means. A sort of 'black ops' team whose existence is known of only by the current emperor and a couple of high-ranking advisers. The Emperor must know of the existence of the Durya and Vandur, and how does he propose to keep them in check if he knows nothing at all about how they operate? I would certainly want someone who knows something about magic advising me on such matters.

The other thing to keep in mind is how the Holorian attitude towards magic will affect the player's choices when creating a character. If magic is outlawed, then the player automatically makes themselves a criminal by choosing to play a magic user. There may be some leeway in the area of religion, where it might be possible to construct a magical system based on the player's faith and a little divine intervention (which would be perceived as miraculous by the public, rather than occult, so long as the player was perceived as a paragon of virtue), and provides some role-playing options as well. I think this area needs a bit more thought and discussion. (Although personally I would love to play as a savage witchdoctor stickin' it to the Holorian man. )

I agree, it does usher in some conflicts that might make gameplay limited.

Taking your first point, I agree that the Emperor would need to have some form of inroute to the magic arts, as you say, a kind of "black ops." Maybe we could bring it in as a magistracy or a temple appointment, priests of a certain temple dedicated to the rooting out of magicians. however within their ranks and secret rites is the practice of magic in order to counter magic dangerous to the Holorians.

Perhaps as the pontifex maximus in Rome, this could be allied to the Consullor or Imperial rank and family, appointments to the highest ranks and the recruitment of the lower ranks of tame sorcerors who practice in the shadows for the good of the Empire.

Just to let you guys know, we have a voice actor member. Please take a look and give him a big welcome. We need to start working out some voice files...

So what do the Glissidia look like?

Personally, I'd like the Glissidia to look very different from each other based on their 'flavor', varying in size, color, shape, etc., so that the player is always surprised when they see one they've never seen before. I also think that the appearance should bear some resemblance to the power it contains. Large, megalithic stones, decorated by savage tribesmen, small, finely-cut gems embedded in the crowns of buried kings, plain, smooth stones at the bottom of a pool of clear water, a chunk of glazed meteorite on a bed of silk in a finely carved wooden chest, etc., that kind of thing, so that the player is never exactly sure what they are looking for. The people who are in possession of these stones aren't likely to know what they do, or even that they have any particular power, only that they have a strange, other-worldly feel to them that make them desirable. They might be used as totems, 'magic stones', or 'god stones'. Also, I think that, while the stones should radiate a faint power on their own, they should magnify each other's power when brought into proximity with one another, causing all sorts of havoc: earthquakes and volcanic erruptions, thunderstorms materializing suddenly out of blue skies, raining hail, skeletal armies rising from the ground....you know, the usual sorts of calamities. The Vandur and Durya, of course, know about these strange interactions between stones, but the younger races, who by some chance just happened to bring these stones together, would be completely mystified by the source of the disturbance and blame it on the gods. I think there are some interesting possibilities here.

Any more ideas?

Sounding good to me. We would need them to keep some kind of similarity, visually, as somewhere and somehow they would have been manufactured or created so their content/appearance needs to be something that was made. For instance in LOTR the rings of power looked different but they all looked like rings. I wont go on to Welkynd stones (well kind, as in modern street talk in south england, thats well kind mate. I am sure Bethesdas english staff had a good laugh when they made these well(really)kind stones. Bunch of.... well.

Anyway, how about having the Glissidia as a carven stone, the appearance of marble or some other thing with some forgotten, oldie worldy writing on them. However they vary, some even worked into caskets and so forth.

Thats my submission for your thoughts.

Happy to go with the majority.