This thread is dedicated to the discussion of Holorian politics. Valisarius is imagining people in the streets being assassinated, speeches everywhere, and people on the streets asking you for your vote.

These are my ideas that I just started to type on the chat while no one was around.

To Valisarius:

Finally an interesting idea. In Rome there were two significant political parties. The Populares and Optimates. The Populares were the party for the common people, such as the to lower consulors and commoners. They had values more like the comteporary liberal or someone of the left wing. The Optimates were the party for the elites and nobles, similar to the higher consulors and the wealthy. They were more like the comtemporary conservative or someone of the right wing. I'm imagining that the Populares are starting to gain ground (which is exemplified later by the election of Sacudinarus). They're finally realizing they can actually change something. In Illisidium and the rest of the Western Empire, I'm imagining daily riots with common people on "soap boxes" hand in hand with the lower consulors. In frustration the Optimates are trying to assassinate the emperor because of how he stole the power from the noble Consulori. I'm also imagining both sides are assassinating the others political leaders. Then you have people on both sides arguing about whether they should focus on domestic or foriegn policy. I'm not sure where to fit the other tribes, but I'm imagining a lot of drama between the tribes. One question are tribes determined by blood or by ideology?

One question that might comeup is should these events happen real time or should they progress as the player chooses a side and goes through the quests? I personally believe this should be handled as they progress, even if it's less realistic it lets them experience the city life more. On another note, maybe we could have members on both sides looking for an assassin and the player could pick up some quests in that department. They might also be looking for informants, so we could fit the bill for those who like detective work. We could also put in place a system that once you become renowned enough or are caught in the act as an assassin or informant you'll be hunted.

I like the use of the latin plebs and patriarchs. In this case this case the plebs would be members of Populares party and the Patriarchs members of the Optimates. I do see some Patriarchs being left wing Populares and some Plebieans being Optimates however. That could add an interesting dynamic. I can imagine a beggar pleading that we must let the best rule and that these riots are offenses against the gods. We must stick to the old ways of Valisarius and keep the Alscoria strong, etc. Just the same I can imagine a young well born optimist foolish, but well intentioned. He would be funneling money into the Populares party and hiding in lower class clothes at their rallies. I can imagine what would happen when the player recognizes and confronts him. "Just please don't tell my father, he'd have my head if he saw me here." He would plead.

Fitting in all this are two points that split both parties. Expansionist vs. Isolationist. The Expansionists were the people who were very worried about the threats of barbarians and the Karithians. The way they saw ending this threat was by conquering there lands and building a powerful military. The Isolationists believed that they should focus more on rebuilding the empire to its former glory. "Remember the Port of Astaratus!" They pointed at Agaria as a place to start. They believed the Alscoria were important for protection, but that until the filth the lived in was restored, what was the point of expanding. These reasonable opinions led to heated discussions, and while the Optimates leaned to the Expansionist view and the Populares to the Isolationist, neither side had a consensus amongst themselves. Expansionists called Isolationists "camel lovers" (Karithians used the Maruk or 'camel cavalry' in warfare and travel) while Isolationists called the Expansionists "Militant War Mongerers

I like the progress you made. I should have been specific about the year in which this mod is set. In 317 the Vandur begin their assault on the western Empire. Tassius at that time is just an officer in the military. Comitatis is in power at the time of this mod which I envisage occuring in year 314-316 prior to the invasion. Part of the questing is that this would be the most heightened period of consulor activity against the Emperor, raising the mob, undermining, assassinating his allies, agents of the enemy in the cities and finally we can have the northern forts and towns overrun much like kvatch. The player would walk through a town one day and chat, have fun with its occupants. A week later he would have to creep through the countryside avoiding enemies and finally come across burned and broken walls and a ruined town with corpses everywhere. As the game time progresses we could even have Illusidim under siege!!!

Thanks I was looking all over for that date. One other thing, are tribes determined by blood or ideology? Like if someone says they are from the Valisi tribe does it mean they are related to Valisi or do they agree with his policy?

Here's a sample Optimate rallying speech in closed circles as not to be accused of treason:

"Adarus Comitatis our so called Emperor is no leader. He is a petty theif like Valisarius before him, who stole the power from the true leaders, the Consulari. His actions against us have have crippled us, making us his bitches. The Populares party sees are weaknesses and as days go by they continue to plot against us. We the Optimates, the true leaders of the empire, shall rise up and strike back against the Plebs. We shall put the vermin back in there place. Long live the Fimiteri Consularae!"

Excellent, I love it.

Thanks, now it is time to write several more stump speeches. Some for closed circles like the one above, some to rally support, and others to persuade. Well first it's time to do my homework ;P

Some more... If I got anything wrong point it out and I'll edit. It has been a long night so I'm bound to make some mistake.

Optimate Rally Speech (Great Orator, talking to large pro-crowd):

“We hear your cries good people of the Illisidium. We fear the barbarian threat in the East as much as you do. Comitatis has spent so much aspiring to be the next Bacchus or Valisarius that he is blind to the true threat to our empire. Brewing in the shadows of his reign a new epidemic is sweeping our capital. Like a disease it grips the hearts of the beggars and the idiotas of our city. The Populares party is not only a threat to the well being of the patriarchs, but of the entire Holorian empire. Look around you! The beauty and safety of our fair cities will lie in the hands of those who think we should better the lives of the beggars, scum, idiotas and Tarma worshipers. From the bottom up they cry! Bah! We need not better the lives of those who don't deserve them. Do we need to pay more taxes to feed the leeches. It would be easier to simply slaughter the vermin one by one.

Look around you, no doubt someone in this crowd is a pleb lover or even a pleb themselves. No doubt a friend or even a family member is. If you suspect, investigate. If they are, confront them, try to convince them with words. Otherwise convince them with the blade. And convince the empire by voting for (insert name of candidate) for consulor. With your help we shall bring back the days of honor under Leontidus the IInd.”

Optimate Persuasive Speech (Amateur Orator, potential assassin target, likely in places like the Agaria):

“In the (insert lower class part of city) we know you are familiar with the Populares. They claim to be the party of the people. Ah that couldn't be farther from the truth. If anything they are the party of foolishness. They ignore the threat of barbarians in the east. The beasts do not discriminate between rich or poor. Young or old. They don't care whether you grovel to them or you resist. No instead of protection they want to better this part of the city. You smile and dance, because one day this place will be clean. What they don't realize is it isn't the deteriorating architecture, but the rats that contaminate it. There will always be an Agaria, but you don't have to be one of the vermin.

You know why you are here. It is because you haven't pushed yourself far enough to reach the safer parts of town. It is understandable you were born here. It is hard to rise up like the rest of us. It is not impossible though. Under Populares rule the Alscoria will be weak and unable to protect the e,[ote. Under the Optimates you will have the opportunity to join the Alscoria and one day find riches. Under the Populares you are just delaying your inevitable fate and tearing apart the very empire you call home.”

Populares Closed Circles Speech (Insider):

“The elitist Optimates think that because of being born into wealth they deserve more representation in Consulori. Entitlement, blood lines, unreasonable expectations, and a growing fear define them. What of the sweat of your brow? An honest days work? The betterment of all people? These are concepts that they don't understand and because we do, we terrify them. Populares the party of the people can thrust these concepts upon them. Through whatever means necessary. This is the end of the age of the patriarchs, so begins the age of the plebs.”

Populares Rally Speech (Everyday Citizen, on a soap box):

“We know your futile efforts in trying to improve your daily of life. Futile because no matter how hard you work, your blood determines how many rungs you can climb on the social ladder. Even I a (potential?) Consulor no less am considered a low among my patriarch colleagues. Is being a slave of a system that you have no say in, fair? Is earning nothing from the calluses on your hands? The answer is a resounding no.

The Populares is the party of the people. We share your values and aspirations. The Agaria must be remodeled to something more respectable. The once forgetten fort of Astaratus must be restored to its former glory. The Optimates will fill you with fear of fairytale barbarian attacks and the idea that the Karithians want out heads. It is to distract you. They realize our growing strength and our chance to make a difference. Your vote (insert name of consulor) is a vote for revolution!

Populares Persuasive Speech (Great Orator to appeal to the Patriarchs):

“You've are both fearful of the barbarians in the east, but also the whispered fears within are very walls. The dangers of the Agaria and the whisper of Tarma worshipers sends shivers down your spine. We realize the threat of barbarians is constant, but the horrors inside our very own walls have to be stopped first. The Populares party will start with the Agaria and its people and root out the corruption that plagues this city.

But the corruption isn't present only in whispers, it lies in the hearts of the Optimates. You've heard it. Cries for the assassination of Comitatis a noble man who supports neither of our causes. Why? To send the Empire into chaos so that the Consulori can assume control. Truly wicked their ideas. With so much danger within and outside our walls the Holorian tradition of assassination must not be carried out.”

Brillian stuff. I can imagine a character standing on a plinth somewhere in the city spouting this off to a waiting crowd. There are clapping animations already but I know enough of anims to be able to do a simple "boo!"

We need to get these ready for a voice actor to take on.

I'd love to fieldthe voice acting, now that my voice seems to be clearing up, I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

Only one question: Who was a emperor well likeed by the Consulori or at least the rich ones?

Difficult one that. Valisarius was hated by the Consulors because he stripped them of their powers in many aspects. They were milching regions and making a nice profit thankyou. The trouble is that the army was being used to quell the mess they had created and was costing the state a fortune.

Tarma was liked by the majority of the consulors as he was making the office of Emperor into a laughing stock. Luckily Tarmas son and I think Bachus remedied much of the problem before the Consulori could unite and get the office removed forever. Scollis arrived when the Consulori were deciding to elect an emperor from their own ranks. He threw one of the Consulors from an open window killing him. He also moved troops into the Middenstal and said, "When you vote upon matters of your office, always remember this." A soldier beside him tapped his sword.

Risuna and Gavian were probably as useless as each other. The latter killed one of his best generals because he foolishly thought there were designs on the throne. The Consulori didnt like the military much as they were the arm of the Emperor and a strong Alscoriate was a threat.

The trouble was that so much rumour abounded about Risuna killing his Alscoraite Kelidimus Mayar that the Consulori couldnt really applaud Risuna for fear of linking themselves inexorably with the murder.

They would probably like Leontidis II as he increased the Consulori to 23 (it would grow even further under subsequent emperors) but he by increasing their number had increased their power and influence.

Leontidis II sounds about right, although he hated the Consulori after killing Autatian. It seems he let that go once he was declared Emperor however.

Power makes for strange allegiances. Being given power by the Consulors he would have been fairly much paid off. It seems odd that he didnt take some form of revenge but likely the population were still getting used to the Consulor system and by increasing their number he probably brought in people that were loyal to the Emperor, though the Consulor system had a way of being manipulated over time. Consulors would regularly talk in high blown terms of the freedom of the Western Holorian state, that the citizens no matter what their class, what their birth, were equal before the law, that Consulor power was based entirely upon the vote (however the richer the citizen the more weight his vote carried.)

There would have been magistrates of lower consulor rank who would try cases brought for and against the lower citizenry however as Consulors would want to rise in rank and responsibility its debatable how far they would push it against one of superior rank if a case were brought by some pleb against the higher ranking consulor/s

Leontidus probably thought he was doing the population a favour, however power leads to wealth and wealth led in this case to corruption. The 23 consulors rather than splitting the Middenstal and making things fairer probably soon came to realise that uniting could give them wealth. As the regions of the Empire increased following expansion, each region would require consulor management and taxation. More consulors, more wealth, more power. The Emperor by retaining sole command of the army however could control things to an extent.

All I need more from you guys to record this is some names of towns and people and stuff to insert in to those.


Thanks!

Hmm...Can't help you much there, Valisarius is much more adept at latin names. I stole the political party names directly from the Roman counterparts XD