Yes, a book. I began writing it some years ago. Much of the mod is a blank sheet but we do need to keep to some of the background stuff. You will see from some of the literature on the forum that there is a huge history to draw upon. A lot of what we can do here is open to imagination, probably about 90 percent of it, but sometimes it will be neccesary for me to say, "sorry cant go down that route", or "we need to adjust this a bit."

I see what you are saying with an opposing human empire, a persia to the greeks or a hittite to the egyptian? yes?

We can still work this in. The entire East of the game map is pretty much empty, more so when you go south and east. You could create an entire people there, allies of the Skaya maybe? or even a seperate tribe. The northern Skaya are emerging from the ice age under the leadership of the Vandur. The southern Skaya or whoever are an Empire alone and are encroaching upon the Holorians. That would actually make sense as one of the Emperors (I cant remember which) tried to drive a road from western to eastern city states and failed.

I dont want to put unneccesary constraints on this (the middle earth mod is quite strict about that as are the oblivion based ones) so with the Mesogea mod I wanted to be as open as possible, but occasionally there will have to be a caveat. For instance a lot of the races are products of my imagination, built upon real or as a history of real races, and the literature that the whole mod draws upon in places would need to be so hugely re-written that its more sensible to adjust things to fit rather than to sweep things away.

For instance the history of the Emperors and the Alscoria of the Holorians takes into account the actions of previous leaders of the Karith, Massinians, Skaya, Vandur etc. I am more than happy to rewrite parts (these will soon form the basis of books and scrolls to give the world depth) but I dont want to spend weeks re calculating and writing huge swathes of history. I can spend that time better doing things to take the mod forward rather than tidy up whats behind it.

If working from writing was boring then the middle earth mod would make us all yawn. Plus there is so much to brainstorm that I have either not written about or not even scratched the surface of....

For instance the Skaya. I much prefer your method of them being hairy northern savages and a huge threat to the civilised world, that they are followers of the Vandur etc. I wouldnt be happy to wipe out the Vandur in one swoop as they are the basis of the Satanic and Demonic legends and myths. Even in the cities of the Holorians there are cults to the Vandur, kidnapping, human sacrifice etc.

However I see your point. There certainly will not be slavish devotion to one book, more that we can use it as a basis, I can write in and tie in the history and combine the brainstorming session outcomes to the whole thing so that the mod is not only the product of us all, but has an integrated history that makes the thing alive rather than a game. Does that make sense?

Actually the more I think about it, the more loose I would like this to be. I actually wonder about your idea here. Maybe having the Vandur too intrusive lessens what we are able to do with the Skaya. I could actually do with you looking at the second chapter of the book to see what we can do here. What is it that you dont like about the Vandur? There may well be a much better way.

Have you read the first chapter sample? The invasion will clearly come through the city of Karisum, Vanin is caught up in it and soon Karisum is to be under assault. What was it that killed Larcius Kato? What did the Skaya bring?

My opinion of the Vandur is like the jedi fighting little 2 year olds.

If the Vandur are to be allowed to continue, you must have an equal number of magic users between the humans and the Vandur. However, the Holorians do not trust magic so that throws that idea out. So, we must find a way to remove the vandur until an equal number are reached. Here is my suggestion. Korgaan, a Skayan warlord traveled far and wide seeking out the magic stones, after completing the ritual, he returned to his people, and slew all of the Vandur, save one. (this unnamed as of yet Vandur prophesized that this would happen, and as such, treated Korgaan like a son, so that when this happened he would be spared.) freed of the Vandurian oppression, Korgaan set up his city-state high in the mountains and allowed his people to roam his mountainous territory at their whim.

Now you have an equal number of good vs. bad magicians (Korgaan and Rendiri of the Massinians who is allied with the Holorians)

However, we know that their are 2 other magicians in the world. One of them is a 2000 year old hermit in the far east. The other is a shaman in the Karithian desert well-known among his people as a miracle worker and healer.

That does link nicely with the Vandur vs the Durya legend. The Vandur are all but gone, the Durya are dying out too. Yes, definately a good idea.

I'm thinking the 2000 year old hermit is where you will learn of Magic, and where you will recieve the quest to learn the magic.

Yes, sounds good. There are some other locations too. How about the Durya have scattered. After the ice melted the Vandur began to exert their power over the old Empire, the Skaya began to move again in the North, gradually rebuilding their strength and pushing south. In the south the Vanduric religion was taken up in places, even secretly in the Holorian nation. At that time the Durya were considered as advisors and counsellors to Men. The Holorian Emperors used their guidance and were on terms of friendship with many of them. However the Vandur were not idle, no longer able to take any form they remained Gods to be worshipped and feared exerting all of their strength now through the priesthood and royal lines of the Skaya and other tribes. Their servants wormed their way into the Holorian states, corrupting the greedy and power hungry until gradually they were able to turn the Holorians against the Durya. The Emperors vied with the Consulors (some of whom were in the service of the Vanduric gods) and following civil war the Durya were expelled. They no longer walk openly amongst the Holorians but they are still active there. Your hermit now lives in the south, wherever you wish him to be. I have others also

Vilmiud, resides in the ruined citadel at Astaroth, once advisor to the great Emperor Valisarius who is buried there.

Rusika, female, lives in Larandor forest and maintains a struggle against the Skaya and the Tamar slavers that plague the north.

Raudafel, secretly active in Holoria. Suspects that the Vanduric gods are behind the plague in Andeburg province (he is correct, the Skaya are massing there in force).

This removes the Vandur as being a physical presence, raises the power of the Skayan leaders whilst giving them a purpose and an opposing sorcery to others. A reason for wishing to go to war.

The Durya, as they are in mortal bodies they age slowly and can suffer as a human would, though are much more powerful. (I dont want them to be similar though to Gandalf and co.)

Your thoughts?

I replied in my PM to you.

Once again off the top of my head I came up with something that just struck me as... right.

Anyways, check the PM, and let me know what you think.

Hi, I'm still a bit unclear about the Durya - who are/were they, what of their origins?

I'm guessing, or maybe suggesting, that they were once a people/nation, but became scattered due to war/politics/ice events. If so, it may make sense that they are now a faction that lives amongst other societies in a diaspora. This could mean that they (or some of them) want to reestablish their own state while others may be happy to be a comfortable minority amongst other societies, probably excelling in certain fields.

Alternatively they are entirely secret and have their own agendas. They work behind the scenes pulling strings for their own benefit, but not the detriment of their host societies in a kind of mutually beneficial symbiosis. Or they may be backstop good guys that are the main bastion against the Vandur reestablishing their hegemony. Well, I'm guessing so far that at least they're not the bad guys... could you clarify?

I think subconciously I really viewed the Durya and Vandur as the earliest civilisted race on earth.

What about this: They became opposed through war, family factions and nations seeking to dominate one another and overthrow the old order. Once they were a republic, but they were conquered by their own Kings and humanity was used as pawns in the great game of conquest. The Durya, those wishing to return to the old republican days, became hunted, much as Brutus and co were hunted by Caesar and Anthony.

The Vandur can concieve of nothing less than the total enslavement of humanity and the return of a Vanduric order with humanity as slaves. They see the Durya as a threat and whilst they exist the Vandur cant really rest. The Durya have for millenia fought the Vandur who seek to enslave humanity, whereas the Durya see their only hope for survival as joining with humanity. Already the Durya have cross bred with humans, the Shealin being the result. The Vandur have therefore waged endless war upon the Shealin and for centuries the Shealin have been besieged in their islands, gradually losing ground. This is happening in the far north off the Mesogea map (I have already written much about this in earlier works) I will photograph my maps and post them all up.

Please feel free to flesh it out, adjust and add. We can work this up together.

I think the Durya could exist in several simultaneous forms. One would be as a 'hidden' people, living amongst other societies as if they were locals. This could by a little like the crypto-Jews who pretended to be Catholics to escape persecution by the Inquisition. On the surface they would appear to be regular citizens, following all the local religions and traditions. Many of them would be regular citizens, who don't involve themselves in any way with the struggle against the Vandur. Others, however, would be part of the secret Durya organisation (should we have a name for this?) who do what it takes to fight the old foe.

Another form could be those who live openly as Durya; this would maybe be in remote places, far from those who would persecute them, or else amongst host societies who are tolerant of them. There could be villages in remote valleys or peninsulas, or maybe offshore islands. There would likely be some secret locations for resourcing, coordinating and training of those in the organisation, particularly their 'black ops' teams.

The third form could be as travellers. These could have travelling professions, whether traders, hunters, tinkers or other skills. This would be both useful in itself, but also the secret organisation would use this as a cover for its eyes, ears and communication network. Black ops teams would travel amongst them as needs be.

These should cover both the necessity to preserve the people, producing new generations, and operating their organisation secretively and effectively. Think something like this could work? What sort of religion and traditions would they have?

I had worked out a sort of core, Durya.

Rusika. female Durya, lives in Larandor Forest.
Raudafel. Travels throughout the city states, storyteller.
Vilmiud. Lives at Astaroth (Corrus Astaratorum) the port to the north of the city states that is now a haven of pirates and scum, still operates as a city but a very filthy, run down, semi market city slum. He was once advisor to the Emperor Valisarius but since Valisarius assassination has removed to Astaroth and lives in secrecy.

The other question is: what form do the Vandur take at game epoch?

Can they also be inhabitants of other societies, keeping their true identities secret, or is their pathological hatred such that they just can't sustain that? I think there should likely be Vandur settlements somewhere, maybe still the underground refuges where they survived the Ice Age. However the ice is well in retreat, so by now they could have established themselves in places outside their refuges. High mountain castles? Fortified towns beyond the fringes of the city states regions? Or do they just stay hidden and endeavour to reestablish the Skaya as footsoldiers, using only their secret operatives to move amongst and manipulate men? You suggested above not having a physical presence in the game world- if so, the quests would be to work alongside/against their agents. If we use the Glissidia for a Vandur destiny quest, I suggest it's to set up an array of Glissidia nodes to increasingly control and ultimately enslave men.

Its difficult to sustain them as non corporeal without them becoming ringwraiths. Maybe they should have a physical existence, keep them as entirely living creatures. If so they would be tall, demonic, unable to take the form of humans as that isnt a trait of the Vanduric offshoot of their species. Taking human form for them would be like a Boxer dressing up as a baby, it would just be to their mind ridiculous that they should debase themselves to such a form. Besides which we can have the Vandur as the warriors of their species, selective breeding has made them what they are, whereas the Durya by mixing their blood with that of the Sheahlin have become much more human.

The Vandur have their strongholds in the far north, there is a Vanduric fortress inside Andeburg (centre left of the mod map). This was once a province of the Holorian City States but a false plague devastated it, clearing it out to allow the Vandur to re-settle it as a jumping off point to assail the Holorians. Now they are gathering their armies there.

What do you think?

That's fine, but they'd still need some way of interacting with the human societies without attracting attention. Doubtless they should have human agents to do this; I suppose these could be people who are conditioned or controlled. Perhaps a little like the Ottomans' Janissaries, they could be children who have been kidnapped and brought up in an environment where they become ferociously loyal to their masters. Probably fearless and ruthless too; cf today's child soldiers in Africa. Once there is such a core of loyal humans, they can continue to exist through future kidnaps and breeding.

I would tend to favour the Skaya as the regular warriors and the Vandur as the masters who wouldn't choose to risk or even show themselves unnecessarily especially with their reduced numbers. The Vandur could even exist in several forms as a result of selective breeding to produce a range of desired results. Their could be mind control specialists, warriors, organisers and logisticians, priestly classes, etc. The controlled humans would be the agents and black operatives as they can move amongst men.

In the game I would favour their goal being to control humans rather than eliminate them, at least at game epoch. Anyone trying to complete their main destiny quest can still be under the knowledge that mankind would likely be doomed as a result.

I always pictured the Vandur as being tall, muscular but gaunt. Similar to humans, but alien, as if they had evolved from a different species, something that rose to prominence after the decline of the dinosaurs, but prior to man. I also picture them as being very long-lived, highly intelligent and cunning and arch-schemers, devoted to in-fighting and jostling for power amongst themselves. I don't really see them as having a ruler, but ruling as a collective of individuals with their own private armies, constantly at war with one another before the decline, forming shadowy alliances, always trying to out-play one another in an endless chess-game of political maneuvering.

As the rightful lords and masters of humans (who were bred specifically to serve) they wouldn't see humans as enemies, but as chattel. Unruly chattel that have bred indiscriminately without the guidance of their masters and grown to unmanageable numbers, but chattel all the same. It wouldn't do to indiscriminately destroy your own livestock, so their goal should be regaining control over them and putting them to work, and eventually bringing their breeding back into line. Naturally they would make all sorts of promises to their human agents to enlist their help, but they wouldn't take it any more seriously than you or I would a promise made to a household pet. (The Skaya, of course, are their sheep dogs, bred to keep humans in line, but otherwise of limited utility or interest to them.) Of course, they would have no problem with making examples of humans who step out of line, and 'put them down' the same way you put down a mad dog.

The chief disagreement I see between the Vandur and the Durya would be in their conflicting estimations of the worth of human beings. The Durya consider humans to be, if not quite equal to them, at least of equal potential, and hence would not consider in-breeding with them to be degrading. They might even consider breeding with them as one of their prime directives, to 'improve' the stock with their superior genetics. (Or maybe only extremist Durya would go this far.) The Vandur, on the other hand, would see the Durya as revolting and pathetic, weak, 'tree-hugging' sentimentalists that would rather 'fornicate with animals' than assume their rightful places as lords and masters. I have no doubt that at least some of the Vandur would consider the Durya to be a degenerate strain that had to be 'stamped out' to preserve the purity of their blood.

As far as the Vandur interacting with humans goes, of course they would never go so far as to disguise themselves as humans in an overt, crude fashion to live among them (like an undercover cop) but I don't see why they would have a problem with deceiving them in every other possible way. Why not use a 'glamor' to appear as a human when dealing with them simply to make manipulation easier? Bend the weak human's mind a little so that they don't remember what you look like, only how terribly convincing you sound when you fill their head with false promises of wealth and power. A Vandur would have no qualms about using any sort of manipulation to get what they want from humans since they barely consider them to be sentient beings. The Durya, on the other hand, would take a more patronizing attitude toward humans, living among them, marrying them, guiding and protecting them, but maintaining secrecy about their true nature to protect themselves from the Vandur. I picture the Durya as being only a little different from humans, perhaps a bit taller and more angular, but not inhumanly so. Just a 'type' of human that only becomes noticeable when you put them all in the same room together.

That's my take on it, anyhow.